The real danger in gamer and mmo culture

Syp at Bio Break today has a small rant about the Seven Of Nine costume in Star Trek Online. Larrissa of Pink Pigtail Inn mentions how she will be playing a male Worgen instead of a female one in WoW because of the oversexualized dance. Massively’s most recent post with the highest amount of comments involves how MMOs treat women.

While I have come down on the other side of this particular argument, that’s not the point of this post. It’s also not the real danger. Syp’s little rant inspired a rant that has been building in me for a long time, and it’s similar in tone. It’s as follows:

The coming danger is not how women are sexualized in MMOs and Gamer culture. The danger is the massive explosion of lolicon among the gamer and anime net culture.

Lolicon is defined in this TV Tropes article here. The term is a portmaneau of Lolita complex, from Vladimir Nakobov’s infamous book Lolita. Lolicon is the otaku’s (the fan’s) fetishization and sexualization of underage girls. It’s related to the concept of Moe but not always a part of it. Moe is a focus on the cute, innocent, and heartwarming, designed to inspire protective feelings, but for many Moe characters fetishization follows, especially in the amateur comic (doujinshi) grey market surrounding anime shows. You can have Moe without a hint of sexualization from the creators at all: the anime series Kamichu comes to mind. However sometimes the lolicon aspects are very intended if not explicit if not pornographic by creator intent.

With the rise in popularity in Japanese anime has come a rise in the popularity of its sexual dark side, and while I have little to no idea of the real numbers behind it, I think it’s influence can’t be ignored. The anonymous and semi-anon image boards like danbooru, sankaku complex, and the /chan boards are part of what drives it. Also driving it is the release stateside of many borderline if not outright lolicon works, like Gunslinger Girl or Strike Witches by localizating mainstream corporations like Funimation. At root though is the production of it in Japanese culture and the acceptance of it, and by osmosis it has seeped into Otaku and gamer culture.

I’m not sure why it exists. Cultural differences about age of consent, the closeness of the school years and the remoteness of female contact in the working world, and the Moe idealization of women while at the same time infantilizing them may be factors. But it’s one of the parts of Japanese subculture that I can’t fully understand.  However that subculture and anime in general has been a profound influence on gamer culture, and it worries me. It worries me because it’s becoming an “open secret.”-a thing people don’t really acknowledge but it’s there.

While Syp and Larissa both have very valid concerns, I have yet to see the blogging community mention Aika’s Pran, especially having found this. When a Pran matures to a certain level, the default “cute” voice can be replaced by one of six “teen” voices. Here’s the cringe-inducing “Sexy/Sassy/Mature” one: (suggestive, not safe for work)

It made me wince. That’s not the kicker though, this is the “teen” pran:

What the FUCK Gpotato? How the hell did you even make that pass localization? This is the shit that worries me, because it’s obviously lolicon pandering in the native market by adding that option. Why the hell did you feel the need to bring that vocal option over? It’s bad enough that the original game has these Prans as a sort of a familiar in a servant-master role, that you also had to bring over an outright lolicon vocal type along with the rest of the traditional “types” like Genki Girl or Tsundere.

Yeah, it’s fantasy. Yeah, people aren’t going to do it in real life, I hope to God. But what worries me is that no one is realizing or talking about it. It’s a shadow culture that is net-driven and while you can argue the difference between reality and fantasy, what we fantasize on does affect our mindsets. In a way, I’m arguing against my own position: this also can be applied to women as well. And yeah, fantasizing even normally can overexaggerate and influence how we view women. A responsible guy realizes that and makes sure not to let them bleed over or affect real life.

But when you start fantasizing about things seriously morally wrong, even that argument fails. I don’t want to come across as holier than thou or anything but no one is talking about this: no newspaper ever mentions it, no pundit ever discusses it, and it’s just like a big invisible elephant in the gamer culture room. It’s getting to the point where people take it as a mater-of-fact and talk about the token loli in the cast of the latest hit manga, or joke about it.

If you think it’s not something to worry about, look at Furry culture. Anthropomorphic animal comics used to be a valid way of telling a story and often expanded the genre in good ways, like Stan Sakai’s Usagi Yojimbo, or Carl Banks’s Uncle Scrooge stories. However, that fandom got sexualized to hell and back, and now Furry is a term of derision.

I don’t think I can say much more. But this has to be said: Gamer and Anime culture need to start taking a hard look at the lolicon influence  and should start distancing itself from that. I wrote this to spark discussion and hopefully get people thinking about it. I don’t have solutions. But this has just been invisible too long.

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18 Responses to The real danger in gamer and mmo culture

  1. chaosakita says:

    I read this and I had to laugh. You can delete this comment or whatever, but the truth is, this is just a bunch of alarmist, nonsensical hand wringing. I think lolicon is objectifying, but no more than conventional porn. What’s wrong? To borrow a term from debate, you provide no impacts other than something vaguely related to furries. (I don’t see your need to be judgmental of furry sexual culture either.) Why in the world is lolicon morally wrong? Most lolicon DON’T commit pedophilic crimes and if it keeps them away from real child porn, more power to lolicon porn.

    Why the fuck would pundits talk about this? How is this a widespread occurrence in Western society?

    There’s way more dangerous things to gamers and females, and I think you’re conscientiously turning a blind eye to them. And you do come across as holier-than-thou.

    • Wolfshead says:

      If you posted this kind of garbage on my blog you’d be banned and your post deleted. Consider yourself lucky that Dblade even tolerates your rude and disrespectful ramblings.

      • chaoskita says:

        oh no

        I really care what you think

        thanks for standing up for him

      • chaoskita says:

        On the other hand, feel free to lord over the fact that I am overwhelmingly a mainstream dumb who is too stupid to do even basic comp sci

  2. chaosakita says:

    The server might have eaten up a previous comment I posted so…

    How is this nothing more than nonsensical hand-wringing? What in the world is your impact here? And how is lolicon bad other than the fact that you don’t like it?

    There’s way worse problems concerning women and gamers, and I feel you’re conscientiously turning a blind eye to them.

    • Dblade says:

      Hi, sorry, given that it’s Halloween here with work I wasn’t able to approve your comment quickly.

      There is no shortage of people talking about the issues with women and gamers. There is a shortage of people talking about this, and my point was to bring it to people’s attention that we are missing a larger problem that no one seems to even touch.

      As for morally wrong, come on. It’s sexualizing girls way under the age of consent, girls who should not be sexualized at all but protected. They are kids. They are being sexualized BECAUSE they are kids. Some classes of people we shouldn’t feel or indulge in sexual desire for, even in fantasy. It’s because the sexual act is harmful and traumatic for the intendee, and brings out the worst qualities in the fantasizer. It poisons relationships.

      Regardless of the serious issues facing women and your stance on them, lolicon is not ok and not equivalent-it’s worse. This is a greater danger because women can stand up and remind us how objectifying is wrong but kids can’t. It’s not a greater danger in the sense of exclusion.

      The problem with providing impacts is two fold. For one, I’m just a blogger: I can’t do sustained and academic research on it to gauge the current extent.

      The second is that impacts often are delayed. I believe that behaviors start off in a small circle of creatives. They then spread to the avant-garde, who then by their disproportionate influence spread it to the mainstream. It may not take in the mainstream, but it forever colors the mental landscape. It gets normalized.

      I think lolicon is at the avant garde state. I think at that state in particular is where people need to honestly look at any form of cultural transmission and debate it fiercely to prevent it becoming normed or hyper-visible by default.

      As for furries, the argument there was how the sexualization gutted the thing that made it worthwhile and still does. Had I known they existed back then, I would have been a card carrying member of Burned Fur. The subculture was originally about using anthropomorphics as a way to tell unique and meaningful stories. That’s pretty much dead. I could go on with more about it, but that’s a sign of how the avant garde hijacked the movement, normalized it to their vision of it, and destroyed it.

      Thanks for replying.

      • chaoskita says:

        People talk about lolicon all the time. On the other hand, people are talking about lolicon in the gaming community as often as it comes up. The game you cited as an example is what seems to be a pretty obscure f2p game from Korea/Japan. I’ve seen virtually no coverage of Lineage II or even Final Fantasy XI, so I’m not sure why something that was probably supposed to initially appeal to Eastern fans would really come up on the radar of any blogs. I haven’t seen any examples of lolicon in Western MMOs at all. When this is the case, I can’t but think that you’re overblowing this if you think this is the “real danger” to MMOs.

        Women (and probably men) in general shouldn’t be sexualized to the extreme they do by the modern media. How much have you internally complained about this versus complaining about lolicon?

        People are born as pedophiles, and taking away their lolicon isn’t going to change that. I think much of mainstream porn is objectifying against women, but I know that taking it away won’t remove the societal influences would cause them to objectify women anyways. Definitely the latter is more consumed by Western gamers as a whole. Also, undoubtedly, general pornography has poisoned a lot more relationships than lolicon.

        Also, there has been NO EVIDENCE that lolicon causes sexual abuse. From wikipedia:

        “Cultural critic Hiroki Azuma said that very few readers of lolicon manga commit crimes. In the otaku culture, lolicon is the “most convenient [form of rebellion]” against society.”

        “Milton Diamond and Ayako Uchiyama observe a strong correlation between the dramatic rise of pornographic material in Japan from the 1970s onwards and a dramatic decrease in reported sexual violence, including crimes by juveniles and assaults on children under 13. They cite similar findings in Denmark and Germany.”

        (Both statements are sourced)

        Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but lolicon was legalized by the Supreme Court.

        Lolicon “brings out the worst qualities in the fantasizer?” What are they?

        People have rape fantasies and watch (as well as participate in through video games) acts of murder all the time. Most of them don’t do what they do in their fantasy world in real life.

        “Some classes” of people? Besides children who can’t consent, who else isn’t allowed to partake in a sexual relationship of their choosing? Mentally retarded people? (And amputees, I guess)

        It’s more ok to objectify women because they can “speak for themselves?” What? One problem continually affects every single women every single day. Another problem affects a relatively smaller (unfortunately, not nonexistent) fraction of kids, but that isn’t larger in severity because just as many adult women get sexually abused. When I was 14, I decided lolicon was ok for the same reasons I do now. Two years later, I don’t like the fact that people objectified girls like me of that age, but I don’t like that people objectify girls my age now (even though I am past the age of consent) or that people will objectify women of whatever age I will be. Just because I am older and can “speak back” doesn’t make it any worse, and presumably, as a man, you don’t have the right to speak for me on the matter. Maybe you can talk about heterosexual women (and homosexual men) objectifying people of your sex, I guess. It’s probably worse for adults because children are conscientious of being objectified, and mainstream society still does have objections about child porn but not degrading adult porn.

        There is no aspect of which lolicon is any more harmful in breadth or depth than conventional porn, of which elements of have been (and known to be) in Western gamer culture for a long, long time.

        Lolicon probably just contributes to real life molestation of children as much as MMOs contribute to gamers killing other people with swords.

        Well, of course I know you’re not an academic (look at your writing style for one), but you don’t seem to provide any examples of “lolicon culture” within the MMO community. Just one anecdote? (Which is fairly mild and not really relevant) I hardly see how this is a major and “advant garde” side of the fanbase that will “take over.”

        Debate? With who?

        The furry fandom, including the sexual aspects, isn’t any less legitimate now than it was when it was about Scrooge McDuck. (Which it doesn’t seem to have ever been) The sexual aspect of the furry fandom is here to stay and it is a objectively a large part of the fandom as a whole. Besides one example, there doesn’t seem to be much backlash against that.

        And why should the furry fandom care about what people think? A lot of people already think their non-sexual activities (esp the fursuitng) to be bizarre. MMO gamers (apparently) are not accepted by mainstream society anyways. Just as a note, one other group that has resisted mainstream identification is the LGBT queer movement.

        Actually, sex has been a mainstream in furry fandom since the beginning; see Omaha the Cat Dancer:

        http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Omaha_The_Cat_Dancer

        (This is from the 70s)

        I’m sure there are a few more examples. Actually, here’s some:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genus_%28comics%29

        If you want to help the actual people in the mmo community, maybe just continuing to blog about sexism against real women. You could even rant against “white male privilege.” Such annoying prattling would be more accomplishing that turtling up in this blog with your morally exhibitionist analysis that’s both judgmental and short-sighted. I think your attitude is even sexist and objectifying in itself.

        By the way, BurnedFur is basically a joke. Both Encylopedia Dramatica and WikiFur (or someone they quote) actually agree on something. It was never accepted by any major part of the furry community.

        I have to wonder, how old are you?

  3. Dblade says:

    Aika really isn’t that obscure. FFXI isn’t an instance of lolicon, that is more of the fans. I’m a longterm FFXI vet, and yeah, I know about Prishe. I chose Aika because it’s the most overt instance I know. TERA may be another: the female Popori have set a lot of warning bells off, although they have been eclipsed by the Castanics.

    Again, it’s the real danger because it’s ignored and it isn’t discussed. Part of the mitigation of objectifying is people objecting to it publically. It’s also becoming a part of otaku culture, again, especially through anon and other means, and its seeping into more mainstream works. Ken Akamatsu and Negima is a good example. Shotacon too for the opposite side of the gender-something as mainstream as Ouran Host Club and Huni-sempai.

    It doesn’t come up on blogs because for some reason, very few MMO bloggers seem to be anime literate. Again, another reason why I see a real danger, because its slipping under the radar.

    The lolicon sexual abuse thing-for one thing, the key word is REPORTED sexual violence. Japan isn’t like the western nations in which a persistent campaign of awareness is raised on subjects, and invidualism is strong. Group harmony is taken often to ridiculous extremes, and it wouldn’t surprise me if such were seriously undereported.

    Yes people have rape fantasies. The problem with them is that over time, they cause tunnel vision about sexuality and force it into games of power rather than the basis of a healthy relationship. They also can cause contempt for the fantasizer because the act itself is degrading regardless of how safe it is, and over time it transfers to the relationship.

    This is what I mean by the worst side. Lolicon reduces not only to a sexual object, but is the most extreme case of dominating and destroying innocence it is. Fantasy life is needed, but there is way too much focus these days on the negative aspects as a relation to power and control.

    Some classes involve consent. You gave two examples. I’d also add a third, where sexuality would twist and destroy familial bonds i.e. incest. Also, when power and authority is in the mix: that’s why we have sexual harassment laws.

    Again, you keep missing the point. It’s a greater danger because no one discusses or points it out. It also is greater because it is normalized in its own subculture, one which is insulated from people that would notice it. But Anime itself is very big, and by its bigness many people come in contact with it. And a lot more people try and justify it.

    I also don’t get your arguments. I’m not arguing objectifization in general: the sole reason I use real and greater is because its hidden. Hidden abuse is the biggest danger, and thats why people always try to promote awareness. For some reason, you are apologizing for lolicon and mitigating it while focusing on women. It’s not an either/or and was not meant to be: the lack of awareness is the danger.

    Massively has done multiple posts on the subject of women in games, and more or less there has been constant dialogue. Also in bloggers as well. Syp and Larissa aren’t the only ones.

    People see the landmine of female objectification. They don’t see the hidden one of lolicon.

    I also disagree with lolicon being no less harmful than regular porn. Its worse. It’s worse because of the many reasons I listed. Any more is rehashing arguments.

    Lolicon culture: pedobear, rule 34, the massive dump of it on the anon image boards, the tendency for loli characters to find their way into games even mainstream ones like Capcom ones (lillith,) the rise of many visual novels, The sexualization of moe characters in series (moe-tan tries to play it for laughs, but “serious” anime like Ai Yori Aoshi do too. Loveless reverses the gender.)

    The fetishization of series of kids animation by fans. Digimon is a huge one. I can think of more off of the top of my head. The culture of porn surrounding that.

    It’s there.

    The furry thing: I know about Omaha the Cat dancer. I’ve read it. But it was only part of the fandom: titles like Albedo, TMNT, Cerebrus, Gold Digger, Hepcats, and it used that to tell stories. And please, Genus is pure porn. When Anatartic Press launched it it was one of the signs that the inmates were taking over the asylum.

    The sexual aspect though tarred those comics with its antics. Furry lost the definition of anthropomorphics and focused on yiffing. It also destroyed the real benefit the movement gave: a startlingly original take on comics and one of the big forces in the rise of the independent scene.

    However the yiffers drove them out. It died as an art form and turned into a lifestyle, and that destroyed the comics.

    As for E.D. and Wikifur, neither really matter. E.D. is snark central, and Wikifur is part of the culture that drove anthropomorphic comics into the furry ghetto. The backlash is tremendous. Heck, roleplaying a furry in any MMO is being persona non grata for serious rpers: Spay your catgirls.

    As for helping, I feel that this is the way I should. “White male privilege” is CONSTANTLY ranted over in society to the point where it’s almost become a parody. “Stuff White People Like.” as the site goes.

    As for judgmental of course I am when it comes to this. Hell, you even are by equating it as a safety valve for pedophiles. For some reason its a personal blind spot for you, because regardless of objectifying women, it is wrong in its own rights. I’m not sure why you are even arguing because you are acknowledging its wrong and are just berating my focus on it over other things.

    • chaoskita says:

      Aika isn’t obscure? Why haven’t I heard of it then? Or the below poster for the matter? I’ve heard of none of the rpgs you’ve mentioned, and for the matter, probably 90% of the MMO market (much less interacts with them). I’ve asked several gamers, and none of them have said that lolicon has anything to do with Western MMOs.

      Of course it’s not being discussed; how large is the blogosphere for those games? You said it yourself: most bloggers don’t know anything about anime, and therefore, wouldn’t know about an anime-based topic. Thanks to your master knowledge, we can all know now.

      I can’t debate that sexual abuse in Japan is probably underreported, but again, you haven’t proven anything. If anything, pedophilia probably comes from genetic factors. (http://journals.lww.com/jonmd/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=1984&issue=09000&article=00006&type=abstract)

      You keep bringing up tangential subjects that aren’t relevant to MMO gamers and then expect everyone else to be your personal loudspeaker. Hmmm… You haven’t provided any real link between Anime culture and MMO culture.

      Who cares if anyone draws Digimon porn? I’ve read fetish porn of various anime series primarily intended for children. People want to draw and read whatever appeals to their interests (sex) and as long as its done well, I see nothing wrong with that.

      The thing is, societal objectification about women affects women far more than lolicon affects kids. The only kind of contact that can come between someone who engages in that sort of stuff is ILLEGAL. But making sexist remarks is not. Consenting sex between adult men and women isn’t illegal, but I feel the attitudes of many men involved in that is degrading to women.

      As for the furry stuff, eh, I can’t comment. But who cares?

      Just because something is in “stuff white people like” means that it’s not relevant? I’m starting to realize your train of knowledge here. I noticed that in the op, you said that females weren’t oversexualized. If you want to avoid a real problem because of your moral outrage, then so be it.

      And if you don’t think I’ll make a good listener (AKA someone who agrees with every single one of your points), then you can click the big red x button on the right corner and not reply. But I wish I could somehow get this out into the larger blogosphere and see how much of an idiot (at lest relative to me) you’re being.

      Here’s the points you’ve made:

      1. Lolicon culture is widespread in MMO culture somehow, and this is proved by providing two relatively obscure titles and anime stuff
      2. People should blog about something they haven’t heard anything about and that is completely irrelevant to them
      2a. People are just ignoring lolicon for some reason (I guess they are all secret pedophiles) and don’t think it’s outrageous because it’s illegal
      3. Lolicon is a much larger problem than female objectification
      3a. Wait, female objectification isn’t happening, nvm
      4. Lolicon is bad because… it causes harm to people. Yup.
      5. TvTropes and Stuff White People Like are important

      Really, how old are you? I want to know more about you? Are you smart?

      • Dblade says:

        Aika is a game in one of the larger F2P portal sites in the industry next to Nexon, Gpotato. If you have played Allods Online, or FlyFF, or follow MMO news generally, it’s not particularly obscure.

        I’ll just sum up my argument in a list like you did to avoid novel writing another reply.

        1. Many MMO fans also like Anime.
        2. Current Anime is heavy on lolicon and moe.
        3. This is also filtering through to the western fans.
        4. It does this through the culture of anonymous image boards among other things, and affects the avant garde.
        5. However it hasn’t reached mainstream culture yet, and is under the radar of a lot of people.
        6. Because of this, it currently is a greater problem because no one knows or responds about it.
        7. It also has potential to be a future problem because its increasingly viewed as normal.
        7a. In contrast, female objectification is a known problem, even if some disagree, and awareness is often raised, and it is fiercely debated.
        8. Because of 5,6,and 7, I wrote this post.

        As for the rest, no offense but you veer from thinking I’m an idiot to wanting to know more about me, so forgive me if I don’t say much about that.

  4. Zubon says:

    Wrong tree?

    Gamer and otaku subcultures are overlapping but far from co-extensive. So none of us are talking about something that applies to us only tangentially? I have never heard of Aika and if there is a visual novel blogosphere out there, more power to them. If there is a rash of hobbit prostitute RP in LotRO, that falls within our MMO blogosphere.

    Baseball is big in Japan too, but I do not expect to hear about lolicon on the sports page, nor do I expect baseball bloggers to cover soccer hooliganism.

    So that’s why I think the gaming blogosphere is not discussing it. We are not the anime or moe blogosphere. For the record, my WoW stint included a post on the sexualization of female gnome death knights. Because seriously WTF?

    • Dblade says:

      Problem though is anime is a huge influence on games, console especially. It also is related to gamer culture in general, given the Japanese dominance in console games historically, and the popularity of many iconic games.

      It also affects MMO culture directly via the RP culture, which heavily borrows from anime ideals as well as other pop culture streams. Plus, F2P borrows anime tropes and designs extensively, even when made outside of Japan, like in Korea.

      Twilight for one is also tangental to gamer culture. Yet people often covered it, and the “sparkly vampire” motif became a buzzword. Champions Online even parodied it. Anime and Manga are a stealth Twilight. Something that is part of the cultural landscape of a lot of MMO fans and filters into the culture.

      Most of the bloggers don’t see it. I’m not sure why. Maybe its because we rarely look outside of our own generational cohort.

      If you want an example of why it’s important, look at TV Tropes. The anime and manga sections of almost any entry dominate, as well as Japanese console games.

  5. Wolfshead says:

    Excellent article! Keep up the great work. I had no idea this kind of garbage was going on. It’s no surprise it’s coming from the decadent and perverted modern Japanese culture.

    I’m glad there are more people speaking out against the overt sexualization of video games.

    Also, don’t let anyone try to bully you into not blogging about a so-called “tangential” MMO topic.

    • Dblade says:

      I don’t think the Japanese culture is decadent and perverted. Well, not any more so, and since my argument is how easily this is getting transplanted to western otaku as eastern ones I guess that makes us guilty too.

      I find a lot to like in it, as well as dislike. While lolicon has been increasing recently, there’s still a lot of good in it and a lot I enjoy.

  6. Squeakers says:

    Same thing happened with bioware and video-game characters and Rules of Rose. People these are simply games and shows and ONLY games and shows. None of these characters exist. They are fiction ONLY. Just like vampires and werewolves are FICTION only. Many a good games have a hard time coming out mainstream because people get their boots in a knot about video-games aimed to OLDER audiences. These are fake characters in fake settings written on a piece of paper or drawn on a sheet of paper.

    These games/shows are clearly labeled for OLDER audiences only. TERA EME panicked about elin and did a bloody poor job about it.

    I’m glad Strike-Witches came out. It’s about time someone out there starts publishing more anime shows. Some of them have VERY good artwork and plot-lines in them. It’s just stupid to block them all because people have a hard time with reality of fiction. No one is forcing anyone’s arm to watch anime, just as no one is forcing anyone’s arm to watch gay or lesbian friendly shows or gore movies.

    • Dblade says:

      The problem is that fiction shapes our mental worldview as well as real life events do. It’s not the same because we recognize it as fiction, but a lot of people think there’s exactly no impact to what we watch or see. I don’t think that’s the case. Modern sadism and masochism spread with De Sade’s Justine, and fiction has influenced thinking more than people think.

      I’d also argue that it’s still a danger, and it will get worse. They not only brought Strike Witches over, but Dance in the Vampire Bund, and I really doubt people will defend the latter. It’s becoming more predominant as manga seems to sink into placating the otaku, and I’m not even getting into the doujinshi culture of fan works where it is blatanly pornographic. Given how close MMO and Anime culture cross pollinates, or even fan culture in general I still believe it’s something to worry about, even when I have completely given up MMO gaming.

      I haven’t really followed what Tera has done with the Elin, as to be honest I’m really down on the industry now. Thanks for commenting, sorry it’s on a dead blog though.

      • Pudding says:

        As a female I see nothing wrong with loli at all. The issue with loli has involved more into a 1950’s gender-politic of society-roles in fictional entertainment,rather than bringing creativity and expression of the artist in pseudo worlds created by pen and paper. But I have to strongly disagree with your post Dblade.

        If that were true that the fiction shapes real-life, then everyone who ever played a FPS would automatically be a murder, and anyone who ever played a video-game or watch any show would be a rapist,racist, homophobic, sexiest, and animal killer based simply and only on the fact that they played a game or watch a holly-wood movie. Of course, this is not accurate or 100% true (or else every gamer and company out there would be locked up right now.).

        I’ve seen Dance in the Vampire bund. One thing I can say i’m glad I had the choice and freedom to watch the story unfold than dismissing it entirely based on prejudice appearances and knee-jerk reactions. Simply because the show had some semi-nakedness (that’s as gruesome as a barbie doll) in it doesn’t mean that entire shows or manga or artist should be burned to the cross. Following the story-line the show is about a Vampire Queen who is protected from diplomatic assassinations from her own race by loyal wolf warriors. Mina Tepes is smart, cunning, and a leader as she takes the form of a youthful appearance, but her other-form which she keeps hidden is that of an ageless being. It’s a romance novel of love and self-sacrifice between a vampire and her wolf.

        What about Chobits by CLAMP? Clearly it’s a manga group made by females, for females. Just because that show had a small amount of semi-barbie-doll nakedness in it doesn’t mean the women who made the manga or their fans should be locked up like dogs for an idea. Cute love-story of a guy with a robot who has a crush and vice-versa.

        I think those who view this with such negativity have gotten much old and bitter by the real-world, while placing the real-world inside the fictional realm. As if fictitious females are forbidden to even have a crush or romantic tension (between two genders or same), or a stenciled navel or leg.

      • Dblade says:

        It’s funny you mention Chobits, because the original point of that series was that you can’t use a doll to replace a real human being. However, it became a series which subverted its own point, and made the dolls in some vague sense real. What loli does for many otaku is exactly this, and what a woman gets out of it is alien to the intent of those otaku.

        And it is shaping their life. The whole 2D is better than 3D mindset for one. If you’ve seen Welcome to the NHK, there was a powerful scene where the most adjusted out of all of them simply can’t overcome the training he has as an otaku, and his idealization of Ruri Hoshino from Nadesico to make love to his real and attractive girlfriend. The grass eaters and the whole thing about the dating sim love-plus, or even Touhou fandom. Theres a lot of worrying aspects to how loli is becoming prevalent, and warping how otaku and others view women. This isn’t even getting into when it becomes pure pornography, like in fan-made doujinshi.

        I’m still worried about its influence, even if I don’t game any more. Strike Witches for example. I’m not sure its safe for an otaku culture to sexualize young women like this, and worse, link them to purity.

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